Bill Horn (BH) and David Hawthorne (DH) Challenging Proper Preterism with Zechariah 14
Steven Hawk (SH) on the Thousand Years and Beyond
TGWJ = The Great White Throne Judgment
It is strongly recommended you listen to this audio “A Better Bible Study Method” first, to see how duped we all (I’m including myself) really have been, and to make sure we don’t get deceived again. We better not take anything for granted and be checking everything from now on!
I will only try and show here that:
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Zechariah 14 (the part Bill Horn quoted, and some more, including a couple salient points of Zech 12 DH asked about) works best with Proper Preterism, and does not work with dispensational (futurist) eschatology, and that,
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The futurist idea of the thousand years flops.
As some who have studied may realize, Zech 14 is one of the more difficult chapters on prophecy, actually chapters 12 – 14 are difficult—more so, than even the book of Revelation.
Not more difficult because of Proper Preterism, actually Proper Preterism (the biblical discovery of our day) makes more sense of it, as I hope to show here (it is shown throughout this site and definitely in the book), but because books, and passages within the Bible are more discreet on these events than say Matthew 24 and like-prophecies of before, what many call Armageddon.
I am arguing these events of Zech 14 are post–the thousands years – as opposed to the futurist view of them happening during the thousand years. If my claims are correct, then this is a huge revelation because it means Christ returned (“second coming” more properly understood as “the parousia of Christ”) right before the thousands years (ca. 70AD or at the destruction of Jerusalem—the Great Harlot), and most Christians and the churches have missed it!
Please pay extra attention to the underlined.
DH:
Steven, Can you give a textual interpretation of Zechariah 12-14,……. defending your position as a Preterist ?
SH:
There is only time and space for some salient points on Zech 12, and Zech 14. Individual questions can be asked later. All I ask is that you mark down my questions and give me the courtesy of answering them first since I have done all of this to answer yours.
BH:
Steven you said Zechariah 14 was a future event but you went on to say we are in the 20th chapter of the book of Revelation. So I would like to ask a few questions or go over a short passage of Scripture and see how you try and explain it within your model.
You went onto say the 1000 years is a period of time that Christ subdues the nations.
SH:
It is not a literal thousand (it is a Greek plural word, which denotes a long period in comparison to the “little time” [or “little season” KJV], which is also in Rev 20:3 “and cast him [satan] into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.”). The older Greek manuscripts – such as Tischenforf’s 8th edition – use chilioi as Strong’s does. There is nothing in the Greek text that insists it to means ONE thousand, but if you follow the links in this article you will find what identifies this period even better than the Greek word is the binding and releasing of satan—after satan has been idenitified (Remember, we are taking NOTHING for granted!), which Proper Preterism has also done!!
But to answer your question, YES the thousand years is a time Christ subdues the nations. The thousand years is not a time of utopia as the churches have misled many to believe, and here’s my first witness (scripture, the Apostle Paul) with my (parenthetical thoughts to simplify what I’m trying to explain) …
The Order of Resurrection, which this passage includes things about the thousand years and after (most do not realize that), in 1Cor 15 …
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits (circa 33AD), after that those who are Christ’s (cf. 1Th 4:17 “Then [after, like above [we who are living,…” ALL Christians during this period called “the first resurrection,” which BEGAN circa 70AD – if you don’t know the significance of the year 70, read on – by the preponderance of scripture) at IN (“in” shows a time process, not “at”) His coming presence (Greek parousia, not coming, thus it should read:
“….after that those who are Christ’s in His presence (parousia)”.
The question is presence where, and how are we in his presence during this period?), …
24 then comes the end (This is not the end of the old Jewish age as preterists have assumed – like other passages that talk about the end. This signifies the end of the thousand years and little season of Rev 20, and according to context is the end of the first resurrection, i.e. when all Christians are raised during this long period. Each in his/her own order as they physically have and are dying), …then comes the end…when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He (Christ) has abolished all rule and all authority and power (My witness against the futurist idea of the thousand years. Notice Christ has subdued His enemies and the nations at this point, i.e. after his thousand years plus the little season reign, sometimes translated “little time or season”). …
25 For He (Christ) must reign (during the thousand years and the “little time” of Rev 20, also mentioned in Psa 110 and Heb 2:8) until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (UNTIL, another of my witnesses to your question of what he does during the thousand years and that it is not some time of utopia Christians have imagined) 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. (Correlates with Rev 20:14 below, which is also after the thousand years) …
27 For He (the Father) has put all things in subjection under His (Christ’s) feet (Since about 70, starting with authority given Christ against his enemies in Jerusalem. Why is the year 70 important? Because it signifies God’s judgment [the Abyss] on Apostate Judah [the Jews] who at that time had the kingdom, but were “about to” Gk. Mello lose it! My witness: Mat 21:43 Because of this I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you [Judah, or the Jews. What part of taken do we not understand?], and it will be given to a nation producing the fruits of it. The Last Days Edition of The Christian MythBuster Series will systematically teach you – what the churches have distorted – your biblical people groups with the Bible and history, using charts, diagrams, photos, etc.).
But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He (the Father) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. (This – along with our change to our new bodies – is or should be the ultimate Christian hope, i.e. when God the Father becomes “ALL IN ALL” and NOT the so-called “second coming” when Christ subdues his enemies for a thousand years + a “little season!”)
BH:
From what I read in the Old Testament it’s no contest and 185,000 fell to the Angel of the Lord in one night so it’s hard to make sense of your teachings on this but I had to mention this. Because I’m trying hard to make sense of your beliefs but can’t get my head wrapped around it and I will try to explain why right here.
SH:
Well, I hope you try to make sense of it, because scripture just told us the process in which Christ subdues his enemies, and there’s no magic involved. It states no snapping of the fingers for his enemies to drop dead at once, but it involves conquering kingdoms throughout the age. This is also part of the good news message that has been distorted. It is a long process (i.e. the thousand years plus the little season or little time of Rev 20, when all these powers have been and are continuing today to be subjected to him). The reasons we are seeing the war and deception on the world scene is because satan has been released for a little time (Rev 20:3c, 7-9).
BH:
You say that we are in the 20th chp. of Revelation using Rev. as a timeline. So now I add in to Zechariah 14 being future in your mind you must see it as part of the final battle.
SH:
Yes, we are right now in this time, and it is not conjecture when you understand the players, context, and what is going on before our very eyes ….
20:7-8 And whenever the thousand years are ended, Satan will be set loose out of his prison, 8and he will go to mislead the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog (Mostly Islamic and Communist countries according to the table of nations in Gen 10 and other places. What you need to see is who this “satan” that instigates is.), to assemble them in war, whose number is as the sand of the sea. (That is a whole lot of ungodly people AFTER the thousands years…. As the sand of the sea! How does your model explain that?)
…. This soon coming final battle involving Gog and Magog (we already have the invasion. But I am asking YOU who this camp of the saints is, who is surrounded? Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the land and encircled (surrounded) the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire from God came down out of Heaven and burned them down. It can’t be the Jews!) – NOT the war of the Jews often referred to as Armageddon that happened almost 2000 years ago – that is dead wrong.
BH:
Then how could you say these verses follow the final battle because after the final battle the New Jerusalem comes down and there is a hew heaven and a new Earth so how do you explain the verses below then?
“Then” gives us the indication that it comes after the events earlier in the chapter.
Then we see the defeated nations celebrating the Feast of Booths but then we also read some end up being punished for not celebrating the Feast of Booths.
How do you reconcile this kind of language given that the only thing left are final judgments and the new Jerusalem, new heavens, and new earth. Can’t you see a problem here?
SH:
It is only a problem from your perspective, but you yourself said they had to be defeated first, only you don’t realize their defeat is a process throughout the thousand(s) years and during the “little time” right after the thousand years. For lack of a better description, it is only the final judgment of the gospel dispensation. Remember the saints judge the nations, and this white throne is also mentioned in Rev 3. That is why Psa 110:2 states, “The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, “Rule in the midst of Your enemies.” It does not say rule and reign among friends!?!! That’s why he rules with a rod of iron, that we may call an iron fist!
New heavens and new Earth do not mean new universe and new planets, burned and renewed planets or anything like that (that was Bible language [there are around five different definitions for heaven and earth in scripture] and apocalyptic hyperbole (an overstatement for emotional purposes) Peter used to describe the end of the old system that was “about to” (Greek mello) happen in his day, i.e. heaven and earth). The new heaven and earth are representative of the city, which now represents the NEW creation (the other creation that was about to dissolve in 70 was a city too), the new John saw coming down in Rev 21. It is a city in the shape of the holy of holies (square, see 1 Kings et al), that is garden-like. There is good reason for this that will be elaborated on in Book 3 of this series, called “The Science Edition,” but for now let’s try and stick to Zech 14.
Celebrating the Feast of Booths (Tabernacles) in this prophetic text means being a follower of Christ, because through Christ God is tabernacling among them, which He could not do until Christ accomplished what he did, even though his being slain was foreknown from the foundation of the world. These things you are talking about come after TGWTJ.
So, to answer your question, no – I do not see a problem. Proper Preterism is the only paradigm that has the answers thinking, seeking people are looking for.
BH:
Obviously we are not seeing these things today and it makes no sense they come after the final judgments and the new things as I already listed. So how can we not place these events within the 1000 years?
SH:
Yes they do make sense, and I hope you see that now. Again: For lack of a better description, it is only the final judgment of the gospel dispensation. Remember the saints judge the nations. It is very simple, for the reason I gave above (see 1Cor 15 passage) because they HAVE TO come AFTER the thousand years, just as the TGWTJ does. But we are seeing some things today, such as the incursion/surrounding of the camp of the saints because of the release of satan for a “little season.” But, we do not yet see the keeping of the feast of tabernacles. Why would the nations be keeping that particular feast before it arrives in Rev 21:3, at the arrival of the new heaven and earth?
TGWTJ is the time of judgment for the nations, but this does not mean there will not be any judgments just as the Zech 14 passage states (no rain for those who don’t keep the feast, etc.) Those things have to come after the thousand years because they certainly won’t or can’t be keeping feasts with God’s people until Christ has done his work subduing the nations! Could you imagine a Muslim or Hindu to comply with the Christian God before Christ subdues his enemies? Once Christ finishes subduing the nations they will though. My witness, scripture again….
Satan Freed, then Doomed (Rev 20)
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan (The same first century adversary of Christianity, not a fallen angel. Do you know who it is? Use your imagination, because if you go your merry way and forget about it you won’t understand prophecy, and you might as well give it up because you’ll be sowing deception without it.) will be released from his prison (What prison? The Abyss. Do you know what that is?), 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the [c]seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth (land) and surrounded the camp of the saints (Christianity, somewhere in some land) and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.10 And the devil (the first century slanderer who has been released again) who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet (were); and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment at the Throne of God (TGWTJ, after all in Christ have been raised/changed)
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. (Does this mean there is no more universe? According to the futurist view of a new heaven and earth. But other scripture says the earth abides forever. It is not our planetary system it is talking about) 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (NOTICE NO MORE DEATH, JUST AS THE LAST ENEMY WE JUST READ ABOUT IN 1CO 15:26 SAYS, AND NOTICE IT IS AFTER THE THOUSAND YEARS HERE TOO.) This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Zec 14:16-19 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations (Who are left after the destruction of the armies of these nations, i.e. Gog and Magog, after the thousand years and the little time satan was released, and now destroyed) that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts (Could not happen until the battle of all time in which God lays dead bodies everywhere and Christ has subdued his final enemies), and to celebrate the Feast of Booths (Remember this means being a follower of Christ, but these peoples’ did not make the “first resurrection” and Christ is their high priest.) (17) And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. (18) If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. (19) This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
BH:
Egypt is listed they have nothing to do with the Feast of Booths today and it read families and nations.
And the same ones that the LORD fights with are the ones that end up keeping the Feast of Booths and some end up getting punished for not doing so.
And if your going to try and spiritualize this verse away yes there is a application in the New Testament for this not sure what it might be but I know it’s there with some study but anyways we have a geographical location given Jerusalem they go up to Jerusalem to do this. So the spiritual angle don’t fit here.
Remember we are talking about the Scriptures extreme caution is in order close does not count and gets tossed out of the court.
And Isaiah chapter 19 needs to be included in this study here considering how that chapter ends.
SH:
The spiritual angle does fit here, the spiritual is often the literal, unlike our literal being the physical. Anyway, I think what you mean is don’t get sloppy to interpret it the way I want, and that’s fine I have not. But saying that celebrating the Feast of Booths (Tabernacles) in this prophetic text means being a follower of Christ, because through Christ God is tabernacling among them, is not spiritualizing or being biased as you meant. It is letting scripture interpret scripture, because that is the great commission from Genesis to Revelation, i.e. spreading God’s glory to the ends of the earth, i.e. the four winds or quadrants of the earth: Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south. And in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Which results in God being ‘all in all” (1Cor 15:28) and results in “Jehovah is there” (Ezk 48:35 It shall be eighteen thousand reeds round about: and the name of the city from that day shall be, Jehovah is there.) This parallels Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLY UNTO JEHOVAH; and the pots in Jehovah’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
David, I am elaborating a little on Zech 12 …
– The Jerusalem he defends is of the NEW Jerusalem, and is the camp of the saints in Rev 20:9, which can only be Christians. Who else could be the camp of the saints? This correlates with the Gog and Magog battle when God destroys the invading armies.
Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Incidentally, the LITV associates the above verse with Rev 1:7 “Behold, He comes with the clouds,” and “every eye will see Him, and the ones who pierced” Him, and all the tribes of the earth “will wail on account of Him.” Yes, Amen. Dan. 7:13; Zech. 12:10
Zech 12:10 is talking about the grace allotted to and directed to Christians and the remnant of Jews who became Christians in the 1st century – today there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles—everyone comes to Christ the same way with no special privileges after the 1st century privileges were already given. This verse does not say the Jews as an organization of a Zionist state repent, the grace only goes to repentant Christians. The Jews may mourn here (in the 1st century) because payment of their blood debt is finally due. People cry before the court too because pay day has come! Many compare this reference to Rev 1:7, it may have started in the Day of the Lord, but does not have to entirely end in the 1st century.
Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
This verse requires more space cause it is the most often quoted for the false view of a bodily return of Christ for the millennial reign. Actually this passage states Yahweh’s feet [not Jesus’] but we’ll not even argue that, most Christians don’t even see that distinction. Now, we have proved there was a similar cataclysmic event in the first century which started the “FIRST resurrection.” Otherwise the millennium reign could not have ended and Gog and Magog on the world scene would be non-existent. With that first century event the topography of the earth did not change despite such passages as “2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” because it was talking about the elements of the temple of God, the connection between Him and His people. This was “heaven and earth’ such as Gen 37:5-10 and Isaiah 51:16 is referring to “the people” even though it sounds like a “place” at first. This is a very good argument for apocalyptic metaphoric hyperbole, this is not being biased, this is not playing fast and loose with scripture. This IS letting scripture interpret scripture if you are honest about it. This division allows the rivers of living waters that the Christian embraces when God’s Word and freedom enter his or her life. Jesus advised His disciples to flee Jerusalem when it became surrounded Mat 24:16. The cleaving of the Mount of Olives and people fleeing from Jerusalem through the gap sounds apocalyptic (Zech.4:7; 6:1;14:4,5; Is. 24:19,20). Hab 3:9 and Mica 1:4 use the same Hebrew word ba^qa‛ translated “cleave” in the KJV which is definitely apocalyptic hyperbole and not literal. His feet on the Mount of Olives need not be literal (Hab 3:9; Ps.18:9; Mica 1:3-4).
Finally, my witness that these things (Bill and David mention) are after the battle of Gog and Magog, which is after the thousands years (the last great battle involving all the anti-Christ nations). Notice, these parallels correspond perfectly with these books and verses, i.e. they are all talking about the same time and events ….
Ezk 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and on those living securely on the coasts. And they shall know that I am Jehovah.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the land and encircled the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire from God came down out of Heaven and burned them down.
Rev 20:9 shows us these parallel events are after the thousands years. Now I ask you who this camp of the saints is?
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which Jehovah will strike all the peoples who have fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rest in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths.
Lastly, I’d like to offer some amazing parallels of Revelation and Ezekiel for you to carefully consider, some of which can only be seen through Proper Preterist eyes ….
Note that Ezekiel chapters 37 – 48 are summed up in Revelation 20 – 22. The first resurrection of Rev 20 flows perfectly with the prophecy of the dry bones theme in Ezk 37, the chronological flow of Ezekiel 38 and 39 cf. Rev 20:7 – 13, which matches with the Gog and Magog scenario, the many days in the latter years matching the thousand(s) years and the little time, and forward all the way to the temple/city in Ezekiel and Revelation.
Realize this can only be realized from a Proper Preterist perspective. Others with dispensational futurist views have tried to associate the dry bones prophecy with TGWJ, but that distorts the timeline of both books because of what I said above (i.e. it lays out “the prophecy of the dry bones theme in Ezk 37 with the first resurrection of Rev 20:4-6, it breaks the chronological flow of Ezekiel 38 and 39 with Rev 20:7 – 13 matching the Gog and Magog scenario, the many days in the latter years matching the thousand(s) years and the little time, and forward all the way to the temple/city in Ezekiel and Revelation.”) …
Revelation 17—————Ezekiel 16, 23
Revelation 18—————Ezekiel 26-28
Revelation 19:11-21———Ezekiel 29, 32
Revelation 20:1-3———–Ezekiel 29, 32
Revelation 20:4-6———–Ezekiel 37
Revelation 20:7-10———-Ezekiel 38:1-39:20
Revelation 20:11-15———Ezekiel 39:21-29
Revelation 21-22————Ezekiel 40-48
| Jerusalem is likened to Sodom. Rev.11:8. Ezk 16:46-53 |
The cup of God’s wrath. Rev.14. Ezek.23:32-34
The harlot. Rev.17-18 (Babylon). (Judah and Samaria) Ezk 16, 23
Lament over the Great City. Rev 18 (Babylon). (Tyre) Ezk.27
Earth lit with God’s glory. Rev 18:1. Ezk 43:1,2
The scavengers’ feast. Rev 19. …..Ezk 39?? NO! (Some say this is a parallel – I do NOT – because Rev 19 is linked to the war of the Jews [Armageddon] and Ezk 39 is after the thousands years)
Gog and Magog. Rev 20:7-9. …. Ezk 38-39
Resurrection. Rev 20:4-6 (Valley of dry bones) Ezek.37
New Jerusalem. Rev 21. (City with 12 gates) Ezk 40-48.
The dwelling place of God is with men in the gospel dispensation (before YHWH God becomes all in all)…. Rev 20:4-6. …Ezk 37:27
River of Life. Rev 22. ….Ezk 47:1-2
The trees which bear fruit every month, with leaves for healing. Rev 22:2…..Ezk 47:12
From Book 1, The Last Days Edition” ….
The stench of the dead will be horrible. The search party and clean-up assembly of the procedure to mark the bones to be buried evidently consist of searchers and buriers. They don’t touch the bodies, they mark them and behind them comes the buriers who wear radiation clothing as they cleanse the land of radiation in the aftermath of this type of war. There will be so much carnage, they have to hire professionals to decontaminate the land; it will take seven months to cleanse the land of the dead.
There is no recorded comparison in history to a cleanup of this scale, in a land where His people dwelt, in the Bible or elsewhere. It is referenced as the valley of Hammon-Gog in (Ezekiel 39:11), a massive clean-up and burning of weaponry for seven years, a marking and burying of dead bodies for seven months. Thus shall they cleanse the land. This depicts the extreme defilement of a dead body or human bones according to the Mosaic law. From this, the land could only be purified by the burial of the last vestige of the host of Gog. Allegorically, this cleansing looks to the purification of Christendom from everything “that defiles and is unclean.” (Ezk 39:12, 14 Cf. Jas 3:6; Rev. 21:27.)
I contend Proper Preterism is very biblical. It does not even need to be called that, but needs to be distinguished in some way, so we gave it that name. It give answers people need, so much so that we should be thanking God for this understanding and sharing it. Something very interesting about the Bereans, they did not only check to see if these things were so, but said they would see the Apostles again on the matter. In other words, they were saying ‘we are by no means done concerning this…”
Steven Hawk
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