FUTURISM VS. PROPER PRETERISM
(a debate with Malissia from “False Teachings … Identifying Them”)
S.H.
Malissia, One thing I wish you ( and the others at FALSE TEACHINGS – IDENTIFYING THEM) would consider …
This is when Islam (Ishmael) is defeated:
Rev 20:9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
If you look at the table of nations in Gen 10, GOG & MAGOG are primarily Islamic and Communist countries.
But, notice that verse above is a thousand years after Christ returns? Hint, look at v.4 (i.e. when Christ and His saints began to reign) in Rev 20.
Conclusion: we (tradition) have misunderstood the thousand years to be some utopian time of peace, but Rev 20:7-9 (the Bible) show us it is not.
Malissia Earls Jones
During that time, the thousand years, the devil is supposed to be bound and locked away. He is in fact not and never has been bound, but has been working not just in the world, but within the church. There has been no era when Christ has ruled. Like our predecessors, man has taken control.
Malissia Earls Jones
And as for liking you, I don’t know you. But I love all in the Lord. Even those I disagree with.
S.H.
Ok, thanks for that, me too.
Now, correction: He has been reigning from heaven or we call him a liar and his truth is not in us … (1Pe 1:4; Col 1:5; 2Tim 4:18)
AND
The devil has been bound only in the sense of “not being able to deceive the nations” it says nothing else, please read it. Plus, it is not just any deception, but it means something:
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should DECEIVE THE NATIONS NO MORE, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
What is this deception to the nations referring to?
S.H.
We are now in that “little while” of Rev 20:3 when satan is loosed.
Malissia Earls Jones
There has never been a time when the nations and everyone in them hasn’t been deceived to one degree or another. Not for a thousand years, days, hours or minutes.
While I don’t subscribe to the generally accepted view of the prophetic among evangelicals like myself, neither do I accept most of it’s alternatives. I’ll chit chat with you about it if you wish, but I can not change.
S.H.
Malissia, ANY Christian can change – only professing Christians cannot change.
Notice, I said it is not just any old deception.
What is this deception?
S.H.
It is not Islam Christians are deceived about, Islam is an obvious enemy.
During this thousand year reign Christ subdues his enemies, these enemies are not immediately subdued – it takes a loooong time (i.e. the thousand years rread 1Cor 15:23-28)
Malissia Earls Jones
There has been only one deception since the beginning. “Yea, hath God said……?” It has been mankind’s nature to change God’s word to justify themselves ever since. There has never been a time when this was not the truth of man’s nature. The enemy is not subdued and never has been.
S.H.
I did not say Christ’s enemies are subdued yet. Please, iron sharpens iron, just as one person sharpens another, the bible says. Please read 1Cor 15:23-28 – this happens during the thousand years and Christianity has missed it. It does not happen at the immediate return of Christ as Christians erroneously assert. It happens DURING the thousand years (a time process). Please read it, and note that Christ is reigning starting with v.23.
S.H.
“The end” in v.24 must mean the end of the thousand years, which is after (according to v.23) ALL have died and went to be with the Lord in heaven.
Malissia Earls Jones
You are being rather circular in your reasoning.
S.H.
Why or how am I being circular? If we reason the scriptures as Paul said to do, we may come up with something.
I have an appointment for work soon, so don’t think I’m ignoring you.
S.H.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (raised); then they that are Christ’s, at his coming (the thousand years + the little while of Rev 20:3).
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end (end of the thousand years + the little while), when he (Christ) shall deliver up the kingdom to God (the Father), even the Father; when he (Christ) shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. (During the thousand years! NOT before?!!)
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
1Co 15:27 For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him (Christ), then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.
Thus, when God becomes “all in all” we have utopian peace, not during the thousand years when Christ is subduing his enemies! I don’t see anything circular about that, it is very straight forward.
Malissia Earls Jones
The fact that you insist the 1000 years is past is what makes it circular. It’s happened, but it hasn’t happened, but it has happened, but it hasn’t happened. And you had to add quite a bit to that scripture to make it say what you wanted it to say. I don’t do that nor do I accept it from others.
S.H.
It’s not adding – it’s reasoning (with you) what I see. The thousand years is over and we are in the little while when satan goes out again to deceive the nations (I have not deviated form that). Now, to reason further, what is wrong with it?
Malissia Earls Jones
You have not proven that the 1000 years has happened. It is merely what you choose to believe. “Yea, hath God said ………..?”
I count it a mistake to over spiritualize scripture.
S.H.
Yes, I count that a mistake too, but “proper preterism” does not spiritualize anything.
Now, let’s please not lose track of where we were …
I showed you a brief timeline with 1Cor 15, of what proper preterism postulates. Now you say I have not proved the thousand years has happened….
The thousand years is signified by the binding and releasing of satan (better translated adversary from the Greek, as some of the literal translations do). So, in order to know when if or if not the thousand years happened, you have to identify this adversary that Revelation is talking about. We cannot just ASSUME we know – that causes deception and false teachings!
So, that’s our first job, then I can show you the thousand years is not a time of utopian peace like many have falsely been taught. Here is what we are attempting to do…
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Malissia Earls Jones
I told you. Satan has never been bound. He has been causing havoc for the history of the church just like he has from the beginning. You can only give me an interpretation that I do not consider valid.
S.H.
Did you not read what I wrote about “We cannot just ASSUME (who this adversary is) we know – that causes deception and false teachings!”
Revelation was written in code so that the Christians of the day could understand it because of the persecution. It is not some mysterious code we cannot know. All we have to do is let scripture interpret itself. God’s word tells us who this adversary is, if you will give it a chance and not assume you know.
S.H.
2Ti 2:15 STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY dividing the word of truth.
That says it is OUR JOB.
S.H.
Remember, the binding aspect of this adversary is only to prevent “deception” during the thousand years and little while of Rev 20:3. It does not say there would be peace during this time. In fact AFTER the thousand years it says lots of ungodly people attack or surround the camp of the saints …
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
This is where we are now in prophecy, and I can prove it to those that have ears to hear.
S.H.
So, who or what is this ADVERSARY who deceives the nations???
Malissia Earls Jones
That’s non sense.
Not the scripture, your assertion of “code”. Revelation is happening literally around your ears and you are refusing to see it. I have studied. I’ve studied for over 30 years. I still study. The more I study, the more convinced I am of my convictions on the prophetic. You will not redefine it for me when God so wonderfully allowed me to see it. There is no other time in history when the Revelation could be physically seen. I can see it. You will not convince me otherwise and you will just insult me if you continue accusing me of ignorance.
S.H.
I do see it, and that’s what I’m trying to share with you!! Did you not see that I said we are IN the “little while” when adversary is loosed out of its prison?!?! Proper preterism does NOT say all prophecy has been fulfilled. Please, we have to be willing to be wrong (or admit we are wrong) before we can gert right with God’ word sometimes! I had to admit I was wrong – what’s so special about you?!?!
S.H.
Whoever this adversary is, it is VERY SUBTLE because it says it deceives THE WHOLE WORLD. Thus, it cannot be Islam or something that is NOT subtle …
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
S.H.
HERE IS THE CODE, AND YOU LEARN IT BY NO OTHER WAY THAN BY LETTING SCRIPTURE INTERPRET ITSELF! …
The “thousand years” is a symbolic identification for an indefinite period of time (we think that this is the same period of time which Paul referred to as the time
of “the fulness of the Gentiles, Romans 11:25) that would eventually be “fulfilled” in the future (from 70 AD). Sometime “after that, he (the adversary [satan]) must be loosed a little season (short time [Gk. chronos], as compared to the indefinite time span of a “thousand years”), and when the thousand years (long time as compared to the “short time”) are expired, satan shall be loosed (released) out of his prison,
and shall go out to deceive the nations…” again.
All the above is verified by the fact that in Revelation 18:23 the Harlot, Jerusalem, is identified as the one that “by thy sorceries were ALL NATIONS DECEIVED.” In Revelation 12:10c, “the accuser (national Judaism, in the NT Jews are identified as accusers more than 30 times) of our brothers (Christians) is cast down…” Note that in 20:3 satan (the adversary of Christianity, “synagogue of satan” Rev.2:9, 3:9) is bound specifically that “he should deceive the nations no more.” And then in verse 8 he ( the Zionist Jew, the great harlot, the deceiver of the nations) is released to “go out and deceive the nations” again!
Malissia Earls Jones
If I am ever wrong, I’ll admit it, but I am not in this case. There hasn’t been any 1000 years when the adversary was bound. There has never been a time when man has not deceived HIMSELF.
S.H.
You’re inserting things into God’s word, because there will NEVER be a time when man will not deceive himself! That is not what it says, it says this entity deceives the nations! Can’t you see by the above that this entity is scripturally undeniably identified?? It’s identified by the code that God gave us “the ACC– USER of our brethren”!! Nothing else fits except lies and tradition! It’s also verified by “the SYNAGOGUE of satan (adversary)”. What other group of people go to a synagogue?!?! This God’s word saying it – not me.
S.H.
Deceives the nations before and after the thousand years. If it were what you said, it would just say there is always deception, it would not identify any timeframes like Rev 20 does.
If we add (I’m letting it interpret itself) to His word – we will face judgment for this …
Pro_30:6 Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a LIAR.
This is real situation of tradition vs. the Bible!! Which will you pick?
Malissia Earls Jones
So are we getting to the crux of your thesis? It’s the Jews fault?
We should end this conversation now.
S.H.
No, a Jew can come to Christ just like anyone else! It is a matter of tradition vs. the Bible. Which do you choose?? I only let scripture interpret itself, if I have not, please show me where. Otherwise you are “adding to God’s word” and “falsely ACCUSING” me!
Malissia Earls Jones
End it NOW.
S.H.
Christ said tradition was so powerful it made void the word of God.