Steven Hawk vs. Stephen Whitsett
Steven Hawk First Affirmative
Steven Hawk AFFIRMS Jesus did not begin to reign until the resurrection of the first century saints, which was after the defeat of the first century beast power at the DOJ that crushed the land beast, as Rev 20:4 tells us.
PART 1 OF 2 DEBATE (VIDEO)
PART 2 OF 2 DEBATE (VIDEO)
I would like to clarify something Stephen misunderstood about me… when I say don’t put your faith in men (Psa 118:8), but in the Word, I just mean be a Berean and I hope he begins to see the scholarship in PP, because there is a lot in it and I am not in any sense anti-scholar. I just do not look for their opinions, I need to see it in scripture. 2Co 10:12 says “For we are not bold to number or compare ourselves with certain of them that commend themselves: but they themselves, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves with themselves, are without understanding.” I think also that God is illuminating some things because we are fast approaching the GWTJ of Rev 20:12ff, but guys like SW have us back in the last days before the thousands years even began!
Whitsett must realize that the FPist claim is all prophecy fulfilled ca. 70AD with the DOJ. Proper Preterists on the other hand, such as myself, claim that we are now in the time when Satan (satan is used as a personification of evil) is released from his prison to go out and deceive the nations to war with G&M on the world scene (Rev 20:3 and 7ff), quite a difference. Yet he claims there is not any or much difference. Thus, Whitsett does not know my position and is therefore debating something he does not comprehend, which is part of the problem.
Definitions and Abbreviations:
The “Bible” is the 66 books of the Old and New Testament scriptures.
Resurrection of the dead = a person risen back to life in a new spiritual body 1Co 15:44 (with the same spirit and soul).
PAROUSIA = the accession of Christ to, and His presence on, His heavenly throne of glory, the promised throne of David.
Epiphaneia = a visible, manifestation, appearing of what was hidden previously.
DOJ = destruction of Jerusalem (ca. 70AD)
FPist(s) / Fpism = Full Preterists / Full Preterism
GWTJ = great white throne judgment of Rev 20:12ff
G&M = Gog and Magog
SW = Stephen Whitsett
Proposition:
The destruction of Jerusalem was the visible and dramatic manifestation (“the sign” Mat 24:2, 3) to Christ’s disciples that he would at that time ascend to the throne of His glory in heaven as King of kings and Lord of lords, around the time of God’s judgment upon Jerusalem, as he said he would (ca. 70AD see Luk 21:28;Mat 21:43 when the kingdom was taken from the Jews); and His accession to that throne would not be visible to them (Luk 17:20), thus Christ gave them this sign.
Luk 17:20 And being questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God comes, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
Nature and Time of Parousia
The Parousia most definitely occurred and was “visible” circa AD70 to the resurrected saints. Thus, we hold that the Parousia was the accession and continuing presence of Jesus to/on His throne of Glory along with the resurrected saints.
Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory. (cp. Dan. 7:13)
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.
This great ca. 70AD event that occurred within a generation (Mat 24:34) marked the beginning of the Millennium with Jesus reigning with his Saints (Rev 20:4), subduing the nations of mankind (1Co 15:23-28) from the heavenly realm, reigning over the earth (Rev 5:10 see the LITV). It is a heavenly reign (see 1Pe 1:4; Col 1:5; 2Tim 4:18).
Heb 10:36 for you have need of endurance that, doing the will of God, you should be requited with the promise.”
Heb 10:37 For still how very little, He Who is coming will be arriving and not delaying.”
Requit with the promise is more than coming (without delay) in judgment alone, as futurists assert.
Everything from this point forward is rebuttal:
SW, in this First Affirmative video, states the following scripture affirms Jesus receives his throne and kingdom at his ascension. (As you may already see, there is no scriptural evidence for this in the following verses, as I shall show):
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Col 3:1 If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory.
IV GOSPEL 5:26-27 (NOT WRITTEN BY JOHN, there is not one verse to justify the John idea, thus we shouldn’t say it) For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:
27and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
- Act 2:32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.
- Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.
- Act 2:34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
- Act 2:35 Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.
RESPONSE (Rebuttal) to SW’s above alleged scriptural proofs:
We who hold a Proper Preterist perspective firmly reject any eschatological view (e.g. the FPist view) which posits the Millennium of Christ as terminating in AD70. Such views overtly violate Christ’s clear statements concerning when He would officially take seat with his Saints on the Throne of His Glory (Throne of David) in Mat 19:28, Mat 25:31, & Rev 3:21.
These (above 3) verses alone clearly establish our position, that ca. 40 years after Jesus’ ascension, at the DOJ, when the kingdom was officially taken from apostate Judah Mat 21:43, Jesus began his reign with his faithful overcomers.
But let’s get to SW’s primary proof in Col 3.
Collosians 3 makes no suggestion that the reign of Christ and his saints began, as my three witnesses (i.e. Mat 19:28, 25:31 and Rev 3:21) above show:
1. “Putting on the new self” as being described in Col 3 is the new spirit and this is further clarified by point #2…
2. The same authors in numerous scriptures keep saying that they are still looking for the resurrection in a new body when Christ returns and even Col 3:4 states “SHALL BE MADE MANIFEST,” future tense. Trying to make Col 3:1 refer to the resurrection is simply ludicrous, you can’t have it both ways, it is the resurrection/new body, but yet they are still looking for it!?!?
In baptism we are raised together with Christ, a burial in water “likened to Christ’s death”. This is even the point of Col 3:3 (when did we die? How?)….when we are 1. given a new spirit 2. where in we were raised to walk in newness of life while still in these bodies (not our new resurrected bodies) …the newness we are raised to is a newness of life with a new spirit.
Nature and Time of Resurrection
In a Proper Preterism perspective we note that scripture seems to speak of “resurrection” in terms of a singular event in time coincident with the Parousia and Epiphaneia of Christ. We think this is because the FIRST resurrection, which is of the saints only, is given emphasis and priority over “the rest of the dead” and that is what is being referred to. Thus, we acknowledge that Revelation 20 posits a First resurrection of saints only separated by the Millennial Reign of Christ with his saints, then the rest of the dead are raised after the thousands years.
We think those who only see a single resurrection event are interpreting the more specific and detailed resurrection passages like 1Co 15; 1Th 4 and Rev 20:4-6, 12 in light of the vague verses such as Dan 12:2 and Acts 24:15, which should be the other way around. In fact, we find evidence that the extant manuscripts actually support the inclusion of Rev 20:5a rather than exclusion. 2) Even if one were to eliminate Rev 20:5a from the texts, the very same information is given in Rev 20:6, where protos anastasis most certainly implies a secondary resurrection event. We therefore hold that the First Resurrection pertained to the faithful dead in Christ, and took place circa AD70.
The First Resurrection began the Millennial Reign of Christ with his Saints. Rev 20:4 suggests it occurs AFTER the defeat of the first century land beast power. Thus, we believe the Millennium reign is ongoing today as Christ continues to subdue the nations with a rod of iron and through his gospel. The second resurrection and judgment of “the rest of the dead”(GWTJ Rev 20:12) will occur at some point yet future to us after Christ’s adversaries are destroyed (1Co 15:25; Rev 20:10). Adversary having currently renewed his deception to the nations during the “little while” as Rev 20:3, 7-8 anticipated.
While we believe Christ’s kingdom will never end, we do see an end to some Messianic duties once the nations are fully subdued and we see this to be the point at which Christ delivers the kingdom to the Father according to 1Co 15:23-28, having accomplished all work the Father gave him in the reconciliation of all things.
1Th 4:16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel’s voice, and with God’s trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise —> FIRST.<—
Rev 20:4 And I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment was granted to them. And the souls of those executed because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do not worship the beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on their forehead and on their hand-
—> they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years.” <—
Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years should be finished.) This is the —> FIRST resurrection.<————————
PART 2 FOR VIDEO
Some FPists use the following verse in Mat 28:18 to claim Jesus Reigns at his Ascension:
- Jesus “being” given power and authority:
- Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given (εδοθη is a different derivative of the words used below in Luk 22:19) unto me in heaven and on earth.
Luk 22:19 And taking a loaf, giving (εδωκεν, here is an aorist tense) thanks, He broke, and gave to them, saying, This is My body being given (διδομενον, ) (however, here διδομενον is used in the present tense) for you. This do to My remembrance.
Notice how, in Luk 22:19 above, the same Greek word, but in a different tense is used differently?:
Greek NT WH+ (Westcott-Hort+) εδωκεν used in Luk 22:19 above:
V-AAI-3S (RMAC)
Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Aorist
Voice: Active
Mood: Indicative
Person: third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular
- My Greek lexicon disagrees with the translations I have and I would not had noticed (probably in the same sense the translators didn’t notice) unless I had first learned about Proper Preterism, which informs me of the sequence regarding Christ’s kingdom.
- “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority is (third person singular present of be.) given (εδοθη (5681)) to Me in heaven and on earth.” (Mt 28:18) Alternate “is being given” (present participle of be.)
- 5681 TVM: Aorist 5777, Passive 5786, Indicative 5791, Count: 602
- 5777 Tense-Aorist
- The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.
- The aorist tense, in most cases, cannot be rendered accurately in an English translation, The common practice of rendering a Greek aorist by a simple English past tense is seriously flawed in many cases. It would be better to render these Greek aorist tense verbs into English as a simple present-continuous English tense.
- In the case of Matt 28:19, the KJV makes an attempt to thus render the Greek aorist tense as it rendered the Greek εδοθη aorist, passive, indicative tense as “is (third person singular present of be) given” Alternate “is being given” (present participle of be)
a·o·rist (ā′ər-ĭst) n. 1. A form of a verb in some languages, such as Classical Greek, that expresses action without indicating its completion or continuation.
Aorist definition is – an inflectional form of a verb typically denoting simple occurrence of an action without reference to its completeness, duration, or repetition.
The word comes from Ancient Greek ἀόριστος aóristos “indefinite”,[1]… it described an action “pure and simple”.
“is given”(KJV) in the Greek it is an aorist tense verb. The English language does not have an aorist tense verb so there is no direct equivalent translation of this Greek verb into English. For reasons, apparently known only to them, many translators have generally chosen to translate this aorist tense verse into an English past tense; however, a better translation would be the English present, continuous tense verb “is being given” an action that was taking place in the first century.
- Jesus “being” given power and authority:
- Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority being given unto me in heaven and on earth.
- Jesus delivers kingdom to the Father after all power and authority is put under his feet (submission):
- “Then the end will come, when he [Christ] gives over the kingdom to God the Father —> after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power” <— (1Co 15:24).
The point being that Jesus does not acquire his power and authority at the end as in 1Co 15:24 says “Then, the end” and Jesus still has to subdue, smash, dash enemy authorities that will surrender, the end in v.24 is after the thousand years because the “Then” denotes an interval of time after His parousia in v.23.
When Jesus said “all things are put under him,” referencing Jesus’ statement in Mat 28:18, it is manifest that the Father is excepted, who did put all things under the authority of Jesus.” (1Co 15:27)
That is what happens before he goes forth and rules in the midst of his enemies. He is, to this day, the rider on the white horse dashing the nations with a rod of iron because under the new covenant it is Christ Himself who “judges and makes war” against the wicked (Psa 2:9; Rev 2: 27, 12:5, 19:11-16). The phrase “put all things under your feet” stems from a Hebrew idiom which literally in English means “He will stomp them into submission to His authority.” 1Co 15:24-27 is a commentary on Psalm 110:2ff; et al.
There is a difference between putting all things under you (placed in a position of authority/given the crown) and putting under/an end to all things (an activity that destroys one’s enemies).
The activity that the king engages in to put down all reign and subdue all things comes AFTER the status has been granted and it is usually accomplished “after a much later time” and in the case of Christ it takes place after the figurative thousands years + a little season (Rev 20:3), take note of the following::
Heb 2:8 THOU HAST PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. (Placed in position of authority/King crowned) For in that HE PUT ALL IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIM, (author acknowledges that Jesus had already at that present time been placed in that position of authority/given the crown) he left nothing that is not put under him. BUT NOW WE SEE NOT YET all things PUT UNDER HIM (“put under,” the actual activity/destruction not just the authority, having a crown that ends or puts an end to all enemies’ rule and authority/everything under/subdued in reality not just in authority.)
++++++++++
Is there more scripture that shows Jesus did not begin to reign in his kingdom at his ascension as FP’m implies and as Stephen Whitsett implies?
- Hebrews 10:13 is the commentary on Psalm 110:1 within the NT:
- “But this man (Jesus), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God; and from there He is waiting for His enemies to be made his footstool.” (Heb 10:12-13, emphasis and commentary added)
- Hebrews was written ca. 64 AD, several years after 1Corinthians was written. According to the author of Hebrews, Jesus was still sitting at the right hand of the Father in ca. 64 AD, because He was still waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool.
- So, Stephen assumes Jesus is reigning immediately upon his ascension because he ignores the “until” of Psa 110; it says he sits at the Father’s right hand (cf. the Father’s throne Rev 3:21), “until” he takes his own throne and begins to reign.
Heb 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;
- The 1st century Apostles were sealed with the spirit (30-70AD), which was the EARNEST DOWN PAYMENT Eph 1:13-14; 2Co 1:22, but did NOT have salvation at the cross and resurrection of Christ, but were waiting for his parousia (Mat 24:2-3, 30) and the sign of it.
- Heb 9:28 and Rom 13:11 are a couple verses that show salvation does not occur at His cross and resurrection as Full Preterism assumes, because there is a process to our redemption — HIS RETURN “A SECOND TIME” HAS TO ALSO HAVE OCCURRED. It’s the process of redemption and that process ended with the destruction of the old system ca. 70AD, then redemption/salvation began in the promised kingdom.
- Heb 9:28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear “A SECOND TIME,” apart from sin, to them that wait for him, “UNTO SALVATION.”
- Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for NOW is our salvation “NEARER” [near is not here] than when we believed.
- (Carefully consider this verse with Heb 9:28 above to see they did not have it yet, until His return.)
- I repeat, Rom 13:11 (above verse) salvation is close.
- Then, in the following verse, we see Salvation is here ….
- Rev 12:10 And I hear a loud voice in heaven saying, “Just now came the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, [WHEN?] for the accuser of our brethren was cast out, who was accusing them before our God day and night.” (CLV)
- We see the accuser of our brethren having been cast out at the DOJ, because over 30 times in the NT, none other than the Jews are called the accusers of our brethren and they were indeed cast out of their city and kingdom as Jesus predicted in Mat 21:43, ca. 70AD and the verse i just read tells us that is the time of the inauguration of Christ’s kingdom!
- So, if salvation and Christ’s kingdom came when satan or adversary was cast out, then it did not come at Christ’s ascension because Jesus was seated at the right hand of the Father as the prince in waiting (see Dan 9:25-26; Act 5:31) about 40 years before he became king!
- Then in the Parousia, Jesus leaves His Father’s throne and ascends to his throne, i.e. the promised throne of His Father David when He invites His faithful “overcomers” to ascend to heaven (by resurrection) and “sit with Me in My throne even as I also overcame and sat with My Father in His throne.” Once He is sitting on HIS OWN throne God “sends the rod of (Jesus’) strength out or Zion” and so Jesus reigns “in the midst of His enemies.” Paul, commenting on this passage, states that, “He must reign until…He has put down all rule and all authority and power…when all things shall be subdued unto Him…” in our future.
- The parousia consists of his reign after the accession to His promised throne (Mat 19:28; Luk 1:32-33) – and is not only the wrath of God’s judgment as SW espouses — “the Day of the Lord” begins with the wrath of God on the 1st century Apostate Jews and shines through with the Parousia (presence) of Christ, still ongoing today.
In Summary, Before Jesus became King, he was the prince in waiting (see Dan 9:25-26; Act 5:31). Stephen mocked at the idea of someone, such as myself, coming to realize what the majority does not know. IMV, he lacks faith that God reveals to those who diligently search and do not depend on others to come up with our conclusions. 2Co 10:12 says “For we are not bold to number or compare ourselves with certain of them that commend themselves: but they themselves, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves with themselves, are without understanding.” I think also that God is illuminating some things because we are fast approaching the GWTJ of Rev 20:12ff, but guys like SW have us back in the last days before the thousands years even began!
What is “firmly established” here is the usual futurist hot air bombast and theological muddle that is preterist denying logic.
There is a difference between being given an inheritance versus taking possession of said inheritance. Just as the roles of hierarchy shows us there is a difference between given power in authority over all things such as when a prince is seated and when a king is first crowned, in this case we have shown was ca. 70AD, and when the king actually wages war, hunts down and captures, then destroys all his enemies. That is a process, not a single event, just as setting up the kingdom is a process, not a single event.
Scriptures say Jesus would return when his kingdom is prepared (IV gospel -not written by John- 14:3, After he first ascended and obtained it. In foreknowledge of himself leaving he said, speaking to his disciples “and if I go on and prepare for you a place, again do I come, and will receive you unto myself, that where I am you also may be;” Jesus is not saying he will prepare it here, but that he will prepare it in heaven where he ascends to, then comes back to take his sheep to be at that place in heaven with him.
We who know Proper Preterism think since the DOJ (as Christ said would be the sign of his parousia) followers of Christ have been risen to that heavenly kingdom and have been populating it since. Even in Jesus’ own parables he alluded to this process. Jesus left to prepare it and would return to receive his own, in the soon to be harvest, in the last days (Heb 1:2 says that THEY were in). Stephen should realize, according to audience relevance, it was they (not us) living in those last days.
I recently watched a news video that had a picture of a lion in the background with the words HAVE NO FEAR, CHRIST IS NEAR. To someone, like myself, with a proper preterist perspective that is denying Christ’s own words, because Christ is present and has been present when you understand he is to reign in the midst of as he conquers his enemies. It is only when he is finished subduing those enemies God will be all in all. So Christ is and has been here (not near) for almost 2000 years.
ἀόριστος. Liddell, Henry George; Scott, Robert; A Greek–English Lexicon at the Perseus Project